kielle: I've really got to stop reading the news...

¤ And A Know-It-All Grin ¤ (

kielle) wrote,
@ 2004-09-09 11:56:00

This journal is a memorial. New entries cannot be posted to it.

Current mood:

contentious

I've really got to stop reading the news...
...it makes me grouchy. :)

For instance, this article about how dEePly pAiNfUl it is for a straight person when their spouse comes out of the closet. I don't get it. I don't get PEOPLE. Unless you asked point-blank before you got married "Are you straight?" and s/he said "yes darling, as an arrow," then honey, you have not been "lied to." Which seems to be the prevailing attitude.

Now yes, I would be annoyed that s/he didn't trust me enough to tell me, true, but then again it'd be for a whole different reason: I (perhaps somewhat arrogantly) think I'm the kind of person who does get told because I'm so cool about it, so I'd be more like "Dude(tte), WTF, why did you think I'd care?!" But the kind of person who's so devastated to finally discover the truth probably isn't the kind of person who'd be told anything in the first place anyway. And it's really at least half their own fault for BEING that kind of person, innit?

And there's also the "boo hoo now I feel unattractive waaaah" thing which shows up in that article as well, which completely boggles my brain. WTF indeed. Er, yeah, ooookay -- it's about YOU and YOUR insecurities. He's suddenly changed teams because you're too ugly to keep him interested. Suuuuure, sweetie. Riiiight. *pat-pat*

I'm also scratching my head and rolling my eyes at the "oh no, s/he's gay, now we have to divorce, boo hoo" mentality. But then again I'm also a fairly out-spoken proponent of swinging and open marriage, so perhaps I'm the weirdo there. :)

And Chris just brought up the good point (in wandering past my desk at work, heh) that isn't the whole point of the conservatives trying to outlaw gay marriage: to force gays to marry good wholesome hets and pop out kids as is their Christian duty? So why should it matter if someone's been "living a lie"? That's what GOOD little homos are supposed to do, by God! </sarcasm>

Anyway. The following is just a note from an article about adult ADHD that interested me because it describes me perfectly. I'm not saying I HAVE it or that I need medication for it (ffft), I just thought it was interesting...

Adults with the disorder are easily distracted, frequently forget appointments and constantly lose things, say experts. [They may also] fidget frequently, talk excessively and feel an internal restlessness. Other symptoms can include failure to follow through on instructions or finish tasks, difficulty organizing and inability to pay close attention to details.

"One of the tell-tale signs is when someone has a hard time staying in the conversation with you without interrupting," says Carol Gignoux, a Boston-based executive coach who specializes in working with people with ADHD.

And holy moses, as long as I'm on a news kick: Hurricane freaking Ivan. O.O Wasn't this the beginning of a movie earlier this year? Should we all be packing for Mexico?

EDIT: Gee, I've been Fandom_Wanked. *waves* Hi, it took you guys THAT long? You're THAT bored? I'm sorry, has Jordan Wood not ripped anyone off this week? *shrugs* Whatever. It's my opinion, it's my journal, and I'm neither defending myself nor arguing with anyone who chooses to weigh in on this post with their own opinions, even if they think I'm a horrible bitch. Because I know I asked for it by BEING a horrible bitch. If you consider that wanky, well, that's your opinion. Leave your shoes at the door and have fun.

(Post a new comment)

kattahj
2004-09-09 12:12 pm UTC (link)

Unless you asked point-blank before you got married "Are you straight?" and s/he said "yes darling, as an arrow," then honey, you have not been "lied to."

Except for the quite frequent cases when they have been. I know it wasn't the focus of the article, but it wouldn't surprise me if quite a few of those wives have been cheated on repeatedly. At least around here, there's a whole bunch of gay men who pick up guys at bars even though they have unknowing girlfriends at home.

Of course, the problem then isn't the man's sexuality but that he's an asshole, but if a guy cheats on his wife and then expects sympathy because it's so hard to live a lie, then yeah, I think the wife needs a support group too.

(Reply to this)

	canadabear 2004-09-09 12:27 pm UTC (link)
	Hmm, wrote a lot of responses to this and scrapped 'em all. Honestly, you're presenting a pretty bitchy and condescending attitude to something that these spouses have every reason to feel hurt and rejected about. (Reply to this)

Well, no, I understand it.

alara_r
2004-09-09 12:45 pm UTC (link)

Marriage is a contract that's *supposed* to include, for most people, exclusive romantic and sexual love. If your husband comes out as gay-- not bi, gay-- he's saying he never loved you romantically, because gay men do not love women romantically and sexually, they love them platonically. (Unless they are bi men who are in denial about *that*, but we won't get into that.) And yes, that generally is a lie. Mind you, I think in many circumstances it was himself he was lying to, not his wife specifically.

I also understand feeling unattractive-- if you were insecure in your own attractiveness, but felt validated because at least one man thought you were sexy, finding out that no, probably he never did would kick the ground out from under you.

For me personally, I think I'd be less bothered by being dumped because he's gay than, say, because he doesn't want me personally-- it's hardly my fault I'm not a guy. But I can understand that it'd be upsetting to find out the guy who is supposed to be *your* sex partner has a sexual side he never admitted to.

And I think that het spouses of gays are just as deserving of support as anyone who's been dumped or learned of infidelity. I don't think they're *more* deserving, but yes, the pain of being dumped and discovering your husband has been lying to you about sex-- either about sex he's had if he's screwed around on you, or his sexual feelings toward you-- *is* all about the poor hetwife. (Or hethusband, when it goes the other way.) The gay community has historically condoned, and sometimes even endorsed, a certain degree of callousness toward family under the logic that they couldn't understand or be sympathetic anyway-- gays are not encouraged by the gay community to worry about the feelings of the spouses they left behind. I don't think there's anything wrong or even mockworthy about these people trying to support one another.

As for the Christian conservatives... no, no, no. Gay people aren't supposed to live a lie. They're supposed to hand themselves over to Jesus, who will use his magical faith-based powers to convert them into happy straights. Christian conservatives GENUINELY BELIEVE that having homosexual desires is a choice, and anything that can be chosen can be un-chosen. Accepting gay marriage would be a tacit admission that no, these people *can't* magically turn into straights and society recognizes that this can't happen, and that's why they're so opposed to it. (Dan Savage has a great line about the notion of homosexuals recruiting and gays choosing to be gay-- he says something like "Is there anything I can say that would induce you, Mr. Straight Man, to eagerly, lustfully, put my cock in your mouth until I come?" It does illustrate the basic absurdity of it.)

(Reply to this)

paradisacorbasi
2004-09-09 01:24 pm UTC (link)

A lot of people have said what I'd say, so there's a bit more that needs to be said, I think.

Open marriage is all well and good. Nobody is saying it isn't.

If you went into a marriage with the expectation and mutual agreement that it would be an open marriage -- then yeah, fine, it's all good, and nobody has room to say anything.

But if you entered into a "just the two of us" marriage, and spoke your vows with the "cleave unto him/her only" stuff, that means you went in expecting yourself and the other person and nobody else, and that you were yourself not planning to sleep around on the other person, nor they on you.

Which means having one of those two parties suddenly turn around and say to the other, "I know I married you, promised to love you, promised to be with you only, but I lied, I don't love you like that, and I am leaving" is going to come as an unpleasant [and unless things were seriously wrong for other reasons, an unwelcome] shock.

In general, if you're dating someone the opposite sex, the reflexive assumption is they're either bi or het. And that's not really something that requires "asking straight out" for want of a better phrase. It's kind of self-evident.

Nobody is going to at the very onset of attraction to another person stop and say to themselves, "Gee, I really like this guy/girl, but I really hope he/she isn't in denial about being gay and just using me to convince themselves they're really straight before realizing they really are gay and can't pretend to be straight!"

It's ludicrous to expect anyone to think like that.

So yes, I think the "poor little hetwife" has a perfect right to be offended and feel hurt and lied to. I think especially because they married someone who probably had some inkling well before the marriage that the chemistry didn't necessarily work as hoped.

You mock the "poor little hetwife"'s issues, but what about the issues of the person who is using another person with feelings as the door to the closet they're not ready to come out of yet?

It's not right to use anybody for any reason, regardless of what your sexual orientation is. And okay, it's sad if the person didn't realize it themselves. That's different.

As boring and odd and pedestrian as it may seem to you that there are monogamous people in the world -- there are, and that doesn't make them second class citizens any more than GLBTBiPoly are made second class citizens.

This kind of attitude makes me want to say "they must not want you on their side. You make their side look obnoxious."

(Reply to this)

feels_like_fire
2004-09-09 01:54 pm UTC (link)

I'm going to skillfully avoid plaguing you with another essay on the first subject and be the first person to comment on the second one.

Being someone with adult ADHD...*chortle* and being a member of an entire family who has it, I'd say----yeah, you have it sweetie. ^^ Not as bad as I do, but you definitely have it. I will note that it's often coupled with high creativity and inventiveness

And I'm not going to launch into my tirade about it *rolls eyes at self* but I will say that there's no reason for you to go on medication if you can function on a day-to-day basis without a problem without medication. :) Whee! *hugs*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	kielle 2004-09-09 04:04 pm UTC (link)
	laughs I'm really starting to think so, though I still say it's within the range of "normal" and doesn't require medication. Drug me and then I'd just be boring on top of lazy. ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	feels_like_fire 2004-09-10 10:25 am UTC (link)
	It is. If you've had a job/marriage/life/etc this long without it being a problem, there's absolutely no point in spending money on it. The best way to approach this, as wel as a variety of other issues, is just to deal with it however you need it. If it's a problem and you have to take medicine to deal with it, that's fine. If not, that's great too. Whatever works. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

Hmm...

dexfarkin
2004-09-09 02:02 pm UTC (link)

Just to touch on one element here, because people have already covered the main argument.

Something that is often overlooked in therapy and counciling is the support system of the person being counciled. That's why groups like AA have send the outgrowth of groups for spouses and children of drug addicts and alcoholics, groups for the children of victims of abuse, even for spouses of rape victims.

The fact is that whether something is or is not directly about us, they do effect us in one manner or another. A lot of the counciling is to deal with avoiding misplaced anger and blame. For example, the spouse of a drug addict, feeling like because they couldn't convince their spouse to stop, that they have failed somehow.

There are other irrational things that can play on our emotions. For example, someone dealing with the fact that their spouse has been raped or sexually assualted. A very common reaction to that is a complete cessession of physical contact. Whether it's because they have a gut reaction of their spouse being touched and somehow still tainted by that, a mental guilt that because it's now associated with a brutal or violent violation, or a literal physical reaction against it. None of these things are logical, but normal, good people will have the reactions without being able to deal with it.

I think the idea of a spousal support group is a fantastic one. This line: They're absorbed in their own struggles, absorbed in their own liberation, when at the same time their spouses are dealing with this shattering moment. seems very very true to me. When you are dealing with a crisis, it becomes all about you, whether depression, ailment or emotional turmoil, and since there are so many easily accessible support groups for gays coming out, it doesn't surprise me that the spouse left behind suddenly feels alone, shut out, and bitter. There are a lot of stories about gays being 'brave' and finally admitting themselves to the world. There aren't a lot about the people that some leave behind.

I'm also scratching my head and rolling my eyes at the "oh no, s/he's gay, now we have to divorce, boo hoo" mentality.

I am surprised that you can't see this as being a potentially shattering event for most people. The vast majority of the world does not have either the mindset or emotional control to handle an open relationship. Think of all the friends you had that talked about their open relationships that twisted from jealousy and distrust.

As well, in many of the cases, Kielle, the new lifestyle the person coming out is embracing often has no place for the spouse, willing or not, in it. If Chris suddenly decided he was gay, didn't want a relationship with you beyond friendship, and left to persue that life, I'm very dubious that you would be able to handle it in a cavalier or dismissive manner. I could be wrong or misreading you, but that doesn't sound like the reaction you'd have.

While we do exist in a highly over-'victimized' society, support groups and social networks are a very valuble reasource for people. Most of our big problems are flaming little shit that on a larger scale, matters nothing. And the solutions are temptingly simple, it seems. "Drink too much? Then just stop drinking, you whiner. If you can't put down the drugs, you're weak. Why should you be upset that I'm depressed?"

But the solutions aren't simple, because the problems often defy rationality. Having options to be able to deal with them, and learn how others have is, in my mind, a very important thing that should not be derided.

(Reply to this)

kielle
2004-09-09 04:02 pm UTC (link)

Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful responses, guys. No, I actually DON'T mind dissenting opinions when I'm just being pissy. :) And I agree 100% that the support group is a good idea -- I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that. I just can't seem to wrap my brain around the way our society works, some days, and yes I suppose that technically makes me wrong. I can accept that. Doesn't make me any less likely to grumble about it, though. ;)

Although I do have to ask why most of your rebuttals so far seem to automatically assume that there has been cheating involved...?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

trishalynn
2004-09-09 09:59 pm UTC (link)

Possible reaction to the recent prominent gay guy who came out (the NJ governor)? Or that's how the media normally portrays married gay guys who find out they're gay?

Or people can't get their brains wrapped around the idea that you can decide that you are something or like something without ever having tried it? Case in point, me. I decided I was bi before I ever had any non-platonic contact with a woman. Doing it only confirmed that I was. But most others can't think of a guy immediately saying, "No, I really like guys and I really like the cock better" without ever having had the cock.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	canadabear 2004-09-10 10:48 am UTC (link)
	Actually, in re-reading all of the above responses, NONE of them assume that the gay spouse has, in fact, been unfaithful. It is simply presented as a possibility as it probably would be when speaking about any marriage (that isn't open) these days. (Reply to this) (Parent)

phantom_wolfboy
2004-09-09 05:06 pm UTC (link)

The thing that strikes me is that there seems to be an ongoing assumption (possibly on the part of the article writer [I didn't read it] and certainly) on the part of many of your correspondants that the man is necessarely lying to his spouse about his sexuality. But in many of these cases, the men are first and foremost lying to themselves. They have been told being gay is bad. They may have been told that all they need is to find the right woman. They may think they've found that woman. They may have been through "reparative therapy" and now believe that they are straight. Or they may have only just now found out what their feelings really mean. It's a complex situation; one size does not fit all.

(Reply to this)

esorlehcar
2004-09-10 05:49 pm UTC (link)

Why, for the love of god, is it worthy of eye-rolling for someone to decide they want out of a marriage after learning that their spouse is not sexually or romantically attracted to them? Would you feel equally scornful if a man said told his brunette wife that he was exclusively sexually attracted to blondes and she said, "Sorry, I think I'd like to have a relationship with someone who is actually interested in having sex with me?"

You also seem to be assuming that after gay married people come out of the closet, they'd be thrilled to stay with (and keep having sex with) their spouses, even though their spouses are a gender they're not attracted to, and it's just the horrible spouses who keep leaving. I doubt there are statistics on the subject, but I'd hazard a guess that in most cases, when people sit with their spouses down to have the "Honey, I'm gay," discussion, it's not in the context of, "So now that you know, let's just live happily ever after as man and wife!"

Breaking up sucks. Whether you're the dumper or the dumpee, it sucks, and learning that someone you're married to isn't (and possible never has been) sexually attracted to you would be a hard thing for anyone to take. You're not required to be compassionate, but is enormous sense of superiority really necessary?

(Reply to this)

tiferet
2004-09-11 12:30 am UTC (link)

You know, I was relieved when my second husband finally admitted (to himself as well as to me) that he was gay. Really glad to know that no one had hit me with the ugly stick when I wasn't looking.

I wasn't mad at him but it was still traumatic.

And why the fuck would I have stayed married to him? We were great FRIENDS before we got married and we STILL are.

But I don't need to be married to a man who does not want to have sex with me, and he doesn't need to be married to someone he can't get it up for unless he watches some guy's ass for half an hour and then has to blow his load before he realises that he's doing a girl, and afterward he doesn't want to help ME get off.

I have plenty of friends I'm not married to and I didn't divorce him out of hate, I did it out of plain old common sense.

Nonetheless. I am 40. I was 31 at the time. I was a bisexual activist. I had suspected he was bi and married him anyway.

I am sure that if I had had a traditional mindset--that if we had sworn eternal sexual and romantic fidelity, and we had had a couple kids, and a mortgage, and stuff...I would have been pissed off as hell because even though he didn't mean to deceive me, he really was lying to himself, I would have been put in a shitty position because of it and frankly even so I was and I was quite unhappy with him at the time.

You do not know what the fuck you are talking about, dear. You ARE an arrogant little twit. Marriage is not like shacking up. Even if you think it's wonderful he finally figured out his shit and you're relieved that it's not about you, or even really about your pussy, you still have a lot of bullshit to go through before it's all over and you've still done time being married to someone who does not want to fuck you, wondering what was wrong with you. Go roll your eyes at someone else.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nerdanel 2004-09-12 12:45 pm UTC (link)
	You said it so well. THANK YOU. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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